User talk:SarahLee

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Hallelujah!! I see you can move mountains, I stare in disbelief. You go girl! Great work on 'Help'. --Jbet777 21:47, 31 May 2006 (PDT)



Thanks! I use to do this a lot, but am a bit rusty... Will do a bit as I can. Didn't want to get in anyone's way so figured Help was a safe place to start. --SarahLee 21:51, 31 May 2006 (PDT)

SarahLee, welcome back. Any categorization expertise would be welcome. Thanks. -- Centerfielder 16:11, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

Multiple pipes in categories

Hi SaraLee,

I've been wondering what the result of multiple pipes in categories is. I don't see what they do. Can you help?



Hi, could you please read conserve capitals and dKosopedia:naming and the wiki best practices? If there's a problem with those recommendations please take them up on the talk pages or by editing the practices themselves. Thanks. To do a good job on the Daily Kos:tag cleanup requires doing a good job following English conventions yourself. Thanks. - egmod


Also the convention you seem to have invented to list tags is not good. Names like Tags-Political Bloggers and Sites violate pretty much every convention there is. A meta page like Tag Editors Workspace belongs (along with everything else with that point of view) in to a tag:namespace which would have a tag editors' POV. That way things that aren't necessarily tied to DailyKos or dKosopedia in particular but apply to the blogosphere in general can remain together with the point of view of the whole blogosphere, which tags have. Thanks. - egmod

where tag talk goes

OK, taking you at your word on User_talk:egmod that you didn't care about the naming scheme as long as you had a place to work, I moved the convention-violating names to new pages: tag:person (famous), tag:person (commentator), tag:news source and every valid tag is now a link to an article in dKosopedia itself. It's thus easy to see where heavily used tags are not being carefully enough defined. It's particularly important to identify foreign and minor sources (from a USPOV) like Australian Broadcasting Corporation because of potential name clash with the American ABC. It pays to go wide not deep.

I also renamed the "Workspace" to tag:editors meeting since it's a continuous meeting, and if things get hairy there may need to be IRC or teleconferences to sort it all out. If you object to that put all that stuff at tag:issues since there does need to be such a page eventually in issue/position/argument form. For style see any other page in that form.

Hopefully all that's fine and you can work happily fleshing out tag:namespace now.- egmod

I said I did not care where you put it - nothing about the naming sceme.
In a wiki, "where" is an ontological metaphor, meaning "with what page name".- egmod
I did not like the editing you did at the top of my page. It is a workspace, not a meeting.
I don't know what that means. There is a talk page attached to every page to discuss its contents. Words like "project", "page", "workspace", usually do not belong in page names. If you prefer it can be the tag:editor portal which is consistent with the community portal usage. - egmod

--You changed it while I was working on it and I lost my work. Second time. Remember that tags for Daily Kos diaries may not be thought of the same way as wiki tags. --SarahLee 23:43, 24 October 2006 (PDT)


Mostly we tag editors work out our issues via email or occasionally in the comments of a diary we are working on. We can use the discussion section of that page if needed - but it hasn't been so far.
That's ineffective - you can't remain a small club concerned only with Daily Kos because of tag clash with the whole blogosphere. Obviously you are not working out all the issues fast enough. Also, doing so by email restricts the conversation to people who are using that mailing list - it's necessarily elitist in a way that debate by edit is not. So what you say is "needed" is not the same as what the average reader thinks is needed, necessarily. Nor the average person putting tags on wiki articles. - egmod

-- That is why I created the workspace page - to record what is worked out and to allow others to jump if if they want to. It is where the tags can be worked out. Generally I go through several diarlies on the same subject and look at the tags and then check the All Tag list to see where there is agrement or disagrement on existing tags and which have the most useage. Most of the discussion with others takes place publicly in the comments since most editors will leave a comment about changes they make, we only email if it starts getting long. --SarahLee 23:40, 24 October 2006 (PDT)

We started out by (and still do) look at the tags most of the people are using and then agree on the most used for, since that is what the "community" will remember. No one creates tags for Daily Kos based on a "point of view" other than their own at the moment. Unless they come up with a way to enforce something else progmatically, that will be the way it is. --SarahLee 22:20, 24 October 2006 (PDT)
Distinguish an epistemic community from a real social one please! It's quite reasonable to let people make up tags but it will remain a best practice to use existing tags and people will continue to choose tags based on expectations that others are using the same - popularity is not the sole indicator of correctness.
I agree completely that some population thinking is required - go read some of what Jed Harris and Craig Hubley say about this at Peerworks regarding his open tag project(s). What that means is, "look at the tags most of the people are using and then agree on a happy medium - people participate in the definitions of the concepts they use". But they don't entirely define it. Some elitist intervention is also required, else you would not have your mailing list. There are some distinctions that are popular but also just wrong. Like "bush" for George W. Bush only. This will become very obviously wrong if Jeb Bush runs for President, but it's wrong even if only because George H. W. Bush and his son may be equally likely to be mentioned in articles in twenty years. - egmod
And I can't agree that "No one creates tags for Daily Kos based on a "point of view" other than their own" because they are at least slightly cognizant of the reader's view. They would like their posts to be found, so, they don't use "thatsmarmyguy" for Donald Rumsfeld even if they personally think of him that way. -- egmod
It took years for Wikipedia to sort out its article titles and naming conventions, it's sheer madness or stupidity to imagine that anyone is going to duplicate that effort. User:Johnsonwax had by far the most useful suggestions on DailyKos:tag cleanup. -- egmod

-- We DO try to get people to use exitisting tags and when I edit tags to change to the most used ones, I almost always leave a comment noting what I changed and why (like people not putting in first names or using WaPo instead of Washington Post. I download the last group of All Tags every day before starting work so I can always look for the "most used tag."

Please review avoid new tags, and add whatever you feel is required, but in third person please. - egmod
A lot of people get whiny about having "their" tags changed. But the tags are for the reader not the author. I totally despise things like WaPo and hope it dies very soon, but the solution to that is almost certainly some kind of shortcut expander in Scoop itself.

--We do not have a "mailing list" so to speak - some of us just move discussions we start in comments to email - that was one reason I started the Editors Workspace - so what we agreed on or what I found going on would be recorded someplace and for some tags, we could stop having to go back to All Tags - I started that before the new Clean Up Project page was put up and that came from a conversation in a diary. Most people don't stick with editing very long. Some come and go. We had decent conversations in the diaries, but when we tried to move it to the new Clean Up page, it got pretty technical and most of them dropped out of the conversations.

It's even worse to move discussions to private email since it's totally unaccountable and no record exists of why you decided.
I agree one or more stable URIs where you find all the issue/position/argument that concerns you is required. I appreciate that there were two conflicting projects but hopefully we can just divide the stuff properly between DailyKos:tag cleanup and tag:editor portal. Obviously anything specific to just Daily Kos goes in the former, while anything about tagging in general or tools that goes beyond DK should be in the latter. I know it's hard to keep straight for newbies but tags are meta to begin with, so it's not surprising to have a couple of meta spaces for the different scopes. -- egmod

-- People DO use tags like "thatsmarmyguy" and those are the kinds of things I try to clean up every day.

Maybe it's a trollcall ? A lot of cliques have special tags and links they put on pages just to attract a specific group to them, and they are often things like that. A good definition and some examples are over here.

--We are hoping that User:Johnsonwax is working on something, but per emails at the end of last week, Centerfield had not heard from him in a while. We copied him on our exchanges, but if he has replied, I have not seen that.

--SarahLee 23:32, 24 October 2006 (PDT)
He doesn't have a proper user page either. It would really help if he had one so people who do not know who he is could kind of see who's proposing these things. - egmod
Among other things he might want to read all this stuff at Peerworks which describes more or less exactly the same problem and how to build an open tag system based on it. Peerworks might even have funding for it. -- egmod

reinforcing page naming conventions, linking wherever possible, using third person, revert, etc

There are some wiki best practices that you are resisting. Taken together, they suggest that you are still treating wiki pages as if they are personal property which retards others helping you out.

First, pages really must be written in third person so that others can rewrite paragraphs and state things better or add necessary links - the more you do this yourself the less likely that others who do it will miss or underemphasizing your real point. The tag:editor portal had very messy sections in it that are just quotes from yourself so there's no reason you can't rewrite them. If it matters to you that it was said on a particular blog then add a permalink to that blog, do not attempt to describe the blog in plain unlinked text.

Second, making tag names links in the tag:namespace is necessary in order to verify that the tag matches the name of the page. These need not be links within dKosopedia itself they could also be links to Wikipedia. It is easy for any person who can actually use a mouse to select the list of names from the displayed page without clicking on any of them. It is also possible to get a version of the page without the links, the "print version". So there is no reason to omit links on the tag names.

Third, when page names are changed it's for good reason, and reinforcing their bad old names is a bad practice. There are no other pages called workspace and certainly none called Workspace on dKosopedia, and you can certainly argue that every single page is a workspace of some kind or other. There are on the other hand strong precedents for calling pages used by particular groups of people a "community portal", and very necessary distinctions of namespaces, e.g. "tag:namespace" for those things regarding tags (whose scope is much broader than dKosopedia).

Finally, and just a minor point, to revert is to go back to a previous version and restore it, with no edits. Don't use that word if you are not doing that, because it causes various policy problems, for instance with the 3RR, if people disagree about what's a revert. It is necessary (mandatory on most good wikis) to indicate why an edit occurs, and you do that well enough, and state "requests" as such, so there's no huge problem with your edit summary. But revert is a word with meaning in wiki governance and so you should avoid using it if you aren't actually restoring an actual prior version.

If it makes you more comfortable to encounter all these inevitabilities on your own time, fine, there's no pressing need to adopt all the best practices immediately on every page. But wikis are not blogs, and you will find others can help you much more easily if you make an effort to adopt all the above. -- egmod

egmod, you really seem to be missing the point of the Tag Editors Workspace; I am going to revert the pages I work on constantly and would ask that you please work elsewhere unless you are also cleaning up diary tags in Daily Kos. Once something is done to reduce the number of bad tags being created in the actual diaries, we may be able to delete all of the pages I have created to track diary tags - but until then, it is a workspace for other editors to consult. Thanks for your cooperation. --SarahLee 16:20, 10 November 2006 (PST)
No one cares if you call it a "workspace" yourself, you just can't obscure the actual page name, nor keep spreading bad use of capital letters everywhere. I appreciate what you say about the pages maybe being temporary, but I doubt it. If nothing else they encourage bad naming here. If the pages are just temporary then that's a very good reason to keep them in a separate namespace, as has been done now.
Obviously no one should be "cleaning up diary tags" unless they are actually capable of naming things properly.
No one can work with you if you insist on writing pages in first person and putting all of the important information (like the list of specialized pages) in the middle of the page not up front.
It's you who are not cooperating, and very obviously so, by creating pages like "Tags-Politicians" when the tag:namespace was already created for this. When conventions are established, follow them. Where no conventions are established, follow those who've done this dozens of times before and know all the traps you get into when you don't avoid plurals and so on.
Your bald revert can't stand for the simple reason that you put the important subpages too far down in the page, and the page contains links to pages that don't and won't exist. -- egmod

tag namespace

All the pages are now in tag:namespace. If you keep them there, no one cares how badly you damage them. However, page name prefixes like "Tags-" that pretend to be a namespace are quite damaging, as mediawiki has special facilities to handle namespaces, but not things you create yourself that you intend to treat like namespaces. The tag:editor portal is much friendlier to newbies, and I'll ask you not to restore any of your own spelling errors or inconsistently named pages. If you insist on changing any convention in the tag namespace, that's up to you from now on. If the pages leak out into main namespace, you can expect any reasonable person to refactor them with vigor, revert your insertion of deliberate errors, and so on. That's wiki. Get used to it. -- egmod

good work

All the above aside, it's great work you're doing on the list of approved tags. That definitely had to happen. I don't believe it's a one-shot unless you actually make every tag correspond to one Wikipedia article, but just getting it nearly there will wake up a lot of those people using "cutesy" tags. Whatever our issues with each other, our issues with them are obviously more serious. -- egmod

structure of tag:editor portal

The last two versions of tag editor portal (both mine) both seem to me to meet the important constraints. You seem to think keeping all the tags as close to the top matters the most, so the one visible now (the "alternative") does that. In that version: "This portal and its method" has moved to the bottom where it belongs if most people participating already know it. Meta tags have also moved to last (out of alphabetical order) since only people who really know what they're doing should dare to touch those (a reflexive data structure is fragile and prone to weird implosions). Explanations are extremely terse, and the individual topic section of the page is left as you like it in blog format.

I appreciate that you "couldn't find" things but frankly I think you just didn't follow the redirects. Everything was there on a single page that had the same tags as your old page. I just changed the name.

I'm going to leave this alone for a while and work on Special:Wantedpages. Whichever of the two versions of tag:editor portal you choose to start from, I'm sure you'll be fine. But if you need a space you personally control then I suggested a few possible names at User:SarahLee. An advantage of using user subpages like those is that each one provides a link "back" to your own user page. Since you were putting "back to" on top of each page of tags, I presume that this is what you prefer.

I have rewritten the page now and would really appreciate it if you don't edit the content any more - I've spent way too much time working on this discussion instead of editing tags or participating on dKos to keep my TU status so I can keep editing tags.
I understand that you are concerned with a "wiki standard" but those pages really are just a "workspace" for working out the acceptable tag list. They need to work the way folks concerned with editing tags have been discussing in diary comments and emails. It won't be forever, I hope. --SarahLee 17:18, 11 November 2006 (PST)

Message from ek hornbeck

Heh, I hope this is what you meant. Below is the header code for Welcome New Users. I'm just going to paste it in, partly because I want to see what that trainwreck looks like, but also so you can just edit, then cut and paste it.

I'll pop back here now and again between now and tomorrow night. If you can't this week, that's ok too. I'm in position to cover this Friday, the sixth. If you're not up by 10:30 PM EDT (target is 9 PM) I'll start to worry, but it's not like I haven't slipped a deadline or two myself.

I'm wishing you the best of luck, and I'll be in the thread to help. If you have any questions, track down a recent comment of mine and interrupt. I don't mind, seems like all I do is fight nowdays anyway. I get so cranky without TDS/TCR.


<a href="" title="Photo Sharing"><img vspace="4" width="135" hspace="10" align="left" alt="dKos Flag" src="288121847_1c12948cf4_o.jpg" height="108" ></a>Welcome, New Users, to The Daily Kos. This Diary is intended to help you orient yourself to the site and ask questions about how to use it.

In the Body you will find some links intended to get you participating more effectively. Also in the Body this week is a discussion of Roll Call Diaries using The Daily Kos (dKos) interface.

After that you can ask me any question you want. I don't know all the answers so if you stump me, you do. I invite those wiser than I to contribute and correct (or raise a ruckus, just don't scare people).

No permission slips needed, join us at the deep end of the pool for <a href="">adult swim</a>.

Body Start

<a href="" title="Photo Sharing"><img vspace="-20" width="120" align="right" hspace="10" alt="Small Mirror Left" src="294547389_eca6a3ae33_o.jpg" height="120" /></a>
<a href="">Romper</a>, bomper, stomper boo. Tell me, tell me, tell me, do. Magic mirror, tell me today, have all my friends been good at play? I can see <a href="">Paratus</a> (#119745) and <a href="">lorraine ohio</a> (#120163), the first and last users to join the weeks of 2\/23\/07 to 3\/8\/07, and all of you boys and girls out there in DailyKosland!

Hello Devil. Welcome to <a href="">Hell</a>.

Recommended Links-

<a href="">Frequently Asked Questions</a> Highlighted FAQ Areas/Rules for polite conversation-
I have written some diaries you may find useful- Other Useful Diaries- Here are some other Diaries that address the needs of new users- Here are some older takes on what the well informed user should know-

Other diaries in the <a href="">Welcome New Users Series</a>. The <a href="">Welcome New Users</a> dKosopedia page.

Values Based Decision Making

I believe that this is an entirely seperate category from "values". Everyone has value, whether they espouse them or not. what they do not do nearly often enough is go through a process to ensure that the decisions that they make are based on their values.

All too often, myself included, decisions are based on emotion rather than as a clear reflection of our values. I hope to raise the conciousness of values based decision making among progressives.--Gatordem 11:15, 3 May 2007 (PDT)

We have a lot of people who decide that we need a new tag to especially express their interpretation of a situation/issue/mindset. 9 times out of 10 those ideas fade out in short order leaving tag litter behind for us to clean up.
As I said, if you believe it is absolutely necessary, then you need to wait until you can create a minimum of 15 tag entries for it at one time - we will leave it alone then and watch to see if it grows naturally. As long as it is in the database as a tag with fewer than 15 entries, anyone of the Tag Librarians or occasional volunteers will see it as subject to deletion --SarahLee 08:44, 4 May 2007 (PDT)
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