User talk:BartFraden

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Bart, the new software lets you refuse to update an article based on a regex match. I've set it up to look for "div" tags since the spambot used that. Let's see if the spambots morph their spam to bypass the match. Thanks again for being on the ball, you and jbett and everyone. --Centerfielder 05:50, 20 March 2006 (PST)

Thank you. I like the new look. BartFraden.

Ok Bart. I hope that it's upgraded too, as you'll notice by the latest spam entry by "jopan" i believe. I'm a trusted user on kos and I would be happy to help keep this up and going. In addition, I just got rid of "Jopan"'s spam. - PL

I am reluctant to make any decision like that until I learn more. So let me pass the buck to Certerfielder. - Bart

I'd love Sysop privileges if possible - PL

Centerfielder. Thank you. I think my learning curve just got a little steeper. Bart.

Bart. I'm sorta not paying attention because it's finals time here in snowy Ann Arbor. In any case, I'm going to give you sysop priv, so you'll now be one of the ones in charge. Something to think about: it looks like the spambot only modifies pages directly linked from the main page (at least last time I looked), so we can reduce the spam by reducing the number of links on the main page. On the other hand, that's what the main page is for. After finals and all I'm really going to try to upgrade the software, which will give us the ability to block edits containing certain words, like "cialis". But not yet. Enjoy your superpowers. -- Centerfielder 17:48, 16 Dec 2005 (PST)

Oh, and thanks for the rollbacks. As a sysop you can protect and unprotect pages that need protecting and unprotecting, which is fine, turning other users into sysops, which is dangerous, and modifying the MediaWiki:Featured Article page, which changes the featured article on the main page, which needs to be done way more often than it is now. -- Centerfielder 17:55, 16 Dec 2005 (PST)

Thanks BartFraden. I wish the people in charge would pay more attention to this site and the spammers, but I guess no one is in charge anymore.

Welcome. This site has immense potential!

Hey Bart. I don't think a state should be up for featured article :( All the states need more work and aren't polished enough. Something relating to the domestic spying flap would be more apt in my opinion.

It's not bad to feature the Hawaii material because if every state was up to that standard we'd be in great shape. Putting a few weeks into really making all Hawaii stuff *perfect*, so that other states would get jealous and catch up after Yearly Kos, would be very very good for this project. Anonymous troll

By the way, congrats on your super powers! I like your work and your work ethic. --Jbet777 13:45, 19 Dec 2005 (PST)

Won't be around for several weeks. I'll be back. Hope Corncam's still around to keep you company. --Jbet777 04:41, 16 Mar 2006 (PST)


What is a "minot office"

Unless you are into North Dakota and all that, I think you mean "minor office" and not "Minot office"--Allamakee Democrat 09:58, 21 March 2006 (PST)

I suggest I become an Admin

Yes, an Admin. You and Centerfielder seem to have no knowledge of categories. I could not be worse than you. There are categories I've experimented with and emptied and need to delete. There is also "Category X". --Allamakee Democrat 02:58, 30 March 2006 (PST)

Not yet, AD, it'll take a while. List which pages and/or categories you think need to be deleted here. --Centerfielder 05:14, 30 March 2006 (PST)
AD, I haven't given birth to any admin.s as yet and am reluctant to reproduce. I defer to Centerfielder in this decision. Also, I am somewhat concerned about what appears to be your antipathy to content about foreign affairs and politics outside the United States. Democrats and progessives cannot afford to be parochial in their perspectives if they intend to govern a superpower like the United States. Having written that I am impressed with your diligence in categorization. Thank you for that. --BartFraden March 30, 2006


I have no proof Herger did this. Grazon 16:23, 8 April 2006 (PDT)

OK, so why include it? BartFraden April 8, 2006

Good point. I guess It should be on his article. Grazon 15:46, 9 April 2006 (PDT)


You're not getting your info from a Howard Zinn book are you? Grazon 13:24, 10 April 2006 (PDT)

Source it if you do. Zinn is somewhat controversial. ;-) Though usually right. Anonymous troll


My categorization is to a degree tentative. And I tell you, this is not an easy task.

For the moment, the main task is getting most articles into a category where they can be further developed. I find that some of the articles' subject matter to be quite obscure, and am hard put to find a clear and specific category for them (Cat "Straussians" came along later, only after a gazillion entries from Strauss net motivated me to further investigate).

Please keep this discussion in The dKosopedia Category Project, and *NOT* on this page!!!!

Other articles are so short, or so lacking in context, that I dump them into cat X (for later review) or cat D (for deletion). The cats "Bush rants" and "Misc. rants" are also tentative, containing 2004 election cycle rants; they often lack adequate context, and what external links they have are often broken; categorizing them is very difficult, and thus I dump them in the two rant categories.

We may need a rant:namespace.

To state it bluntly, there is a lot of garbage here cluttering up name space (name space collisions will be a major upcoming issue; I can see inexperienced users overwriting existing articles, leading to reverts; disambig pages are the only solution).

Please read dKosopedia:page name issue thoroughly and comment, the only way to fix this is to make sure we really know where things belong. Anonymous troll

I share your reservations about cat "Criminals". For the moment, it serves as a dump, until all the uncategorized bios are processed. I'm into the O's right now, and this will go quickly enough. Something like "Convicted Republicans" as a subcat of "Republicans" would be in order.

"Republicans convicted of a felony" is clearer.
So was list of Republicans indicted but someone has deleted that. Why? There should be a pipeline of Republicans accused, then indicted, then convicted, then jailed. One purpose of dkosopedia:itself may be to accelerate them along their natural trajectory.  ;-) Anonymous troll

You should look into category "Hawaii", which is by far the largest. It needs a lot of further refinement, but this is the best example of what categories are all about, and can serve as a template for other states. --Allamakee Democrat 07:04, 17 April 2006 (PDT)

Get the names of Hawaii pages right first. You can't solve problems with categories that are embedded in ppbad page name]]s. Anonymous troll

I like the idea of the category Criminal Republicans! BartFraden April 17, 2006

The two words are redundant. Also if you capitalize it like a proper name as you did there, it implies there is a specific group, as opposed to it being a natural part of joining the Republican Party.  ;-) Anonymous troll

Bart, please make sure to sign your comments in Talk pages. Use tildes

-- ~~~~

to get a signature and timestamp. -- Centerfielder 19:16, 18 April 2006 (PDT)


Comunista=Communist Grazon 15:19, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

You are a veritable font of information. BartFraden. April 25.

Graze on

I saw your comments to Grazon. The whole article on the sins of Republicans seems to be lawyer bait to me. Is there a procedure for recommendation article deletion on this Wiki? If not, somebody needs to go through that mess and strip out uncited accusations one by one. It's just the kind of thing that Bush did to McCain. p0m 18:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


Would you re-configure your account so that you can receive email? This is done in "preferences". Nearly everything on a wikipedia can be viewed by anyone who knows how. We need a private channel.--Allamakee Democrat 15:42, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I wasn't trying to offend you

I'm just not completely sure what the phrase "the First-Past-the-Post" means and though others might have the same problem. Grazon 17:23, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

What kind of comment is this? Just read the article on First-Past-the-Post... oh wait!!! That's a bad page name!!!! WE ARE WASTING OUR TIME!!!! Just look it up in Wikipedia, and call it here the same thing it's called there, and write an article on it from US Dem perspective, and this won't happen. Anonymous troll

Naming conventions

I'm sorry to bother you, but I just got a comment (on my User_talk page from Anonymous Troll) threatening to rename or move pages that I've worked on unless I follow some naming convention.

We are developing naming conventions still, but one that is very well established is to avoid uppercase wherever humanly possible so that page names can be used without anchor text in an ordinary sentence, and so that capital letters do not proliferate unreadably everywhere. The vast majority of pages happily follow this convention now. As for other concerns, it's mostly consistency and neutrality questions and actually supporting the FrameShop methods. Anonymous troll 15:29, 23 May 2006 (PDT)
In most wikis, including this one, people can move, merge or rename pages with relative impunity. It's not "threatening" but rather polite to inform people of why in advance, and give them a chance to propose better options. The namespace is under collective control. No one has a right to carve off a chunk of it and create inconsistent page names. Anonymous troll 15:29, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Who is this guy? Do you know what's going on? -- Corncam 12:25, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

It's very rude in wikis that support anonymous trolls at all, to ask "who are those anonymous trolls?" Its as if you are seeking to avoid the point at issue and engage in ad hominem argument or a wiki witchhunt. If you allow anyone to ask "who is this guy?" then you will shortly have the National Security Agency reading all of your private mail since some Republican has asked "who is this guy" of some other troll and the NSA thinks it may be you. So don't ask that. Anonymous troll 15:29, 23 May 2006 (PDT)
"What's going on" is, that The dKosopedia Category Project and the dKosopedia:page name issues are going to have to get slowly resolved and cleaned up together. And that shouldn't be discussed on this talk page as noted above but rather on the project pages in question. Anonymous troll 15:29, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm. Consistency in page naming is a valid concern, and it does seem time to address it. I don't know if Anonymous troll's "well established" standards are the correct ones to follow, but if they're the Wikipedia standard (if so, AT, can you point us to the relevant Wikipedia page),

The Wikipedia policy on this is exhaustive. There are also derived standards that have spread more widely elsewhere in the GFDL corpus (all GFDL documents) and open content more generally. There are some conventions that are specific to the political arena developed as extensions to what Wikipedia started, which emphasis the use of active present tense rather than gerunds when talking about an action the users can or should actually take through the service or the enterprise that runs it. For instance, using the verb "donate" instead of "donating" when referring to the choice to donate to the service itself. That sort of thing. An almost readable list of these is this from But rather than learning a lot of rules, you're better off to do some google searches and find out what the concept is called on Wikipedia (first) or if it's not there, what it's called at,,, or other generally progressive wikis. Over time the dkosopedia may be a leading source of the conventions, it already leads in methodology with the FrameShop and that stuff. Anonymous troll 08:13, 29 May 2006 (PDT)

then it probably makes sense to move in that direction. Bart and Corncam, Anonyous troll's been around for a while, and though his approach sometimes seems off-the-wall he does have a good feel for wiki meta-issues, such as this one. At the very least, it makes sense to let him present his case. If the end result makes sense and is consistent with other wikis, then it probably makes sense to adopt some of thise standards. -- Centerfielder 06:40, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I just looked at AT's Talk:Main_Page bit on page naming, and it's something to be considered. (I particularly hate WikiWords.) Not necessarily adopted in whole, right now, but as a starting point for discussion. -- Centerfielder 06:54, 24 May 2006 (PDT)
WikiWords are an unmitigated disaster. They must really be eliminated everywhere. When used as proper names, as in FrameShop, they will be processed by bad software as two words (Frame Shop). And when generics are forced into that form, like EthicalInvesting, it tends to validate the idea that there's a single well defined proper or legal definition or that it's a proper name of some organization with that as a certification mark. All are extremely serious errors that people will ordinarily make if they see any WikiWords. Anonymous troll 08:13, 29 May 2006 (PDT)

On a related larger point, we don't really have a complete set of standards and practices. Not that I want to be the one to write them. We've done a pretty good job of keeping the lefty loonies at bay, but the recent concern about, for example, the undocumented nature of the Republican Sex Scandals article, is well-founded. (An example from that page: 'J.C. Watts, Representative (R-Oklahoma), loud champion of "moral values." Has out-of-wedlock children.' If so, it should be documented. If it cannot be documented, then it is rumor, and should be removed.) Rumor and opinion should be seen as such, and only hurts our credibility. -- Centerfielder 06:40, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Avoidance of capitalization in article titles in indeed a Wikipedia SOP. It was a pragmatic decision, and one that has raised a minimal number of hackles.
The "Wikipedia Way" may be to "be bold," edit first, and discuss later. I've found that much less turbulence results if discussion over anything major takes place first and edits follow after giving a day or so for people to rant and rave if they so desire. Doing so saves edit wars (AKA revert wars). Taking the time with an edit so that you really nail it the first time also saves lots of trouble. p0m 23:23, 24 May 2006 (PDT)
Right. That's why dKosopedia:page name issue is so extensive. Please make it more so. Then we can make a lot of changes all at once and will at least be able to claim there was consultation. There were minimal hackles when dozens of Hawaii related page names were changed, and they have remained within proper conventions (mostly) since. Anonymous troll 08:13, 29 May 2006 (PDT)


Bart: I don't think you are ignorant of how cateorgies are done, and in fact I have started the process. It behooves you to categtorize your own articles. Note the category I've left behind. --Allamakee Democrat 21:10, 25 May 2006 (PDT)

ALLamakeeDemocrat: I doubt you are aware that your message sounds like you are ordering me to do something. Your contributions have been largely those of a clerk. Like many clerks you may have overestimated the importance of your contributions to the common endeavor. Please watch your tone with me in future. BartFraden. May 26, 2006.
Bart, in politics in general, you don't get to control the tone of any discussion, and if you abandon a discussion because you don't like the tone, you'll simply be victimized or ignored in the result. So while I agree that clerks don't deserve any superpowers (see my comments in Talk:troll rating) or special consideration, in the area of categories and naming conventions, clerk-ness is the only solution, and often requires some executive fiat. If you want, we could try to set up some system like uses to distinguish who's fit to do this, and try to make sure that "mere clerks" don't get the power to order around others based on mere whims. But that too would be a deference hierarchy, and it would involve some orders here and there, to maintain the overall order of the pages (not their political content nor their advocacy positions, but just ensuring that they remain connected and linked properly). I submit you don't have the right, either, to demand deferential tone from "clerks", as they are contributing often on a very broad level that enables many others to do so. Anonymous troll 08:13, 29 May 2006 (PDT)
Oh, and email has no "tone", and if you read one into it, you're buying into some grief.Anonymous troll
Okey dokey. BartFraden. May 30. 2006

Category Issues

When you have time, I would appreciate your comments re: --SarahLee 11:04, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

brown nose

has never been and never will be a racial insult. Grazon 11:45, 21 June 2006 (PDT)


Why did you restore Waukon? It's an empty article you yourself created. --Allamakee Democrat 09:06, 24 June 2006 (PDT)

Troll alert

This one is in need of banning and all his crap deleated. Grazon 09:29, 26 June 2006 (PDT)

"installed or supported by the U.S."

Just how was Hitler installed or supported by the U.S.? Grazon 11:35, 26 June 2006 (PDT)


Thanks. Chadlupkes 07:17, 28 June 2006 (PDT)

Please have a look


You and I seem to have some of the same life experiences/connections. Please take a look at:

and see whether you have anything to add, a critique, or whatever.


p0m 17:56, 3 July 2006 (PDT)


I edited pre-1400 to make more sense. Chadlupkes 07:49, 6 July 2006 (PDT)


  • Thanks for banning Bartfart - he's been nothing but trouble. I was sorely tempted to ban him last night, but I settled for a warning. --Corncam 06:56, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • No problem. The person behind BartFart and Grazon is so much trouble that I suspect him of being an agent provocateur. BartFraden.

Wow I don't agree with Karl Marx and his lackys and that makes me a agent provocateur? Grazon 21:50, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

Somebody blanked your article

Sorry, I saw what appeared to be a new article on Reagan winning the Cold War, and went ahead and wrote something. It turns out that Zebold wiped your article out. I'll revert. p0m 17:54, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

Critical mass on CT-Sen FAQ

Hi...I'm looking to heavily recruit folks to edit the CT-Sen FAQ article, and I'm trying to get a critical mass of editors around it. Would you consider helping? -- RobLa 18:24, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

Hi. I will try to help. Really swamped at the moment but I'll try. BartFraden. 22 August. 2006.

Assymetric Warfare

Bart, I see you've been working a bit on the Asymmetric Warfare article. That article is a wholesale lifting of a dKos diary by Pericles, and I'm of two minds whether it should be edited further. We might want to make a distinction between "articles" and "essays." Articles are multi-authored attempts to arrive at a truth, where essays are sort of like opinion pieces. I hadn't thought this through much when I made this diary the Featured Article, but I'm not sure something like this should be edited; note the personal note which precedes the substance. I'm thinking of bringing selected diaries over -- Recommended, Series (such as History for Kossscks, etc), -- and those are things that are the voice of a specific author and shouldn't be modified. I almost put a byline on the Featured Article on the Main Page.

I also think we might get some more traffic from dKos itself if some of the diaries start appearing as "op-ed" pieces, so to speak.

Does this make sense? What do you think? --Centerfielder 17:26, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

Yes, you make good sense. Some way to flag the distinction between encyclopedic articles with a little attitude and real op-ed pieces would be good. BartFraden. August 31, 2006.

Ok, I'm still considering the "selected diaries series" idea. And there are some diaries that are just so goo by themselves that they should be brought over and remain untouched. -- Centerfielder

Anon troll

I took the block off of Anon troll. He makes some good sense a lot of the time. He's definitiely not a vandal, but he does make an odd decision here and there. You were probably right to revert the Iranian Crisis Timeline rename, but banning him was probably an overreation. His insistence on certain naming conventions is food for thought, but his actually implementing it on articles on which much work has been done is annoying. (He does have a good point about what makes a crisis.) -- Centerfielder 14:58, 4 September 2006 (PDT)

There is no probably about it. I was right to revert. His judgment appears poor. In any event his obsessions with wee conventions have a home on wikipedia, which is where he should employ them. An overreaction? Possibly. But I suspect it got his attention. BartFraden. 5 September 2006.
Very good. -- Centerfielder 19:21, 5 September 2006 (PDT)

Post election reorg

Hi Bart, I'd appreciate your comments on dKosopedia:Post election reorg. thanks, --Corncam 10:07, 9 November 2006 (PST)


  • Dude, who are you...Pat Robertson. Why are you reverting my needed edits and deleting great articles. -- Deaniack 16:21, 25 January 2007 (PST)
Do not address me as Dude.

Hillary Clinton

I think that the Iran/nukes thing would be better on her 'positions' page. (It does not appear to be something she is *campaigning on* - just a position she took.) Furthermore, the title of the section, "Promising A War To Win Support," is a bit presumptuous. Just thought I'd let you know that I'm not trying to censor you - just moving the info to a more appropriate place. Thank you. Hairy legs 09:54, 2 February 2007 (PST)

Joe Lieberman

Hey, Bart. Pardon me because I'm new here, but what kind of a wiki is this? I put in some factual information to this article (nothing controversial either, I put in the final vote counts in percentage points for both the 2006 primary and general elections, as well as corrected the mistaken sentence that Lieberman was "resoundingly" defeated, when in fact it was 52-48, and took out some rediculously melodramatic verbiage about the results) only to find my edit reverted. I understand your comment about how "resounding" can mean something other than "by a large margin," but how about the information I added? Couldn't you have at least kept that?

The main page of this site says wiki "is written from a left/progressive/liberal/Democratic point of view while also attempting to fairly acknowledge the other side's take." How about some fairness? L'Shalom 20:04, 30 April 2007 (PDT)

The article on Lieberman is fair because it is honest. Bart. May Day 2007.

Jim Webb and Carter

The article states that the Carter administration drove Webb away from the Democratic Party. Trying to alter history is Orwellian.

Roger 15:02, 3 May 2007 (PDT)

No Roger, trying to re-write history is what is Orwellian. History can't be altered. What Webb claims is true is less important than what is true. That he wants to tell a story about himself as once having been a Democrat doesn't mean it is true. Many people, especially politicans, constantly edit their own histories to make themselves more acceptable to others. If you are interested in who and what Webb was/is you'll need more documentation than an MSNBC article.

You should note that lots of politicians have changed their political spots when the opportunity presented itself. Heck, Benito Mussolini was a "socialist" before he helped to invent fascism. But the thing to note about that conversion is that when Mussolini was a socialist he was a very nationalistic, very right-wing socialist.

BartFraden. May 4, 2007.

Whatever, the article continues to contain falsehoods you need to either change this, or unlock the article so that someone else can. Roger 14:38, 4 May 2007 (PDT)

Roger, "whatever" is a puerile response. Aside from your wish to whitewash Webbs' Republican affiliation, what falsehoods do you see?

BartFraden May 5, 2007.

Look if you continue to censor the fact that Webb has stated that Carter drove him away from the Democratic Party your superior will be notified.

This is a pedia not a place for you to conceal facts. Roger 18:22, 6 May 2007 (PDT)

Bart, you do some great stuff, but the dKosopedia isn't "The World According to Bart." You're wielding the ban power too frequently. and are often inflexible where discussion is necessary. I've removed sysop priv from your account. --Centerfielder 07:23, 30 May 2007 (PDT)

Centerfielder, I urge you to reconsider. I didn't realize that I was required to adopt a pro-Israel position. If you cannot change that decision then I will have to reconsider "doing some great stuff" here. I doubt that your buddy with the pro-Israel bias can step up to plate and bat like I can. There ARE other minor Wikipedia. BartFraden.

Your, or my, or anyone's position on I/P is not the issue. Your dogmatism and repeated unwillingness to work with others is, as demonstrated by your current deleting of articles after moving them to Do you believe they "belong" to you? Do you think the folk will feel they belong to you? --Centerfielder 16:20, 30 May 2007 (PDT)
I can tell you officially, as the Admin of, that I have told Bart NOT to delete his work on dkos and instead copy the articles and then leave them for the dkos community to hash over and edit as they see fit. And you're right, it's the same rules at Edits are welcome, from anyone, on anything, at any time. Chadlupkes 16:22, 31 May 2007 (PDT)


Hey Bart. Really, you are missed, and you have done much for dKosopedia. I hope after the hurt of disappointment washes away, you'll come back and continue your steady work which is much appreciated. We all have our different interests and quirks, work with us 'warts and all'. Things change and we do have 2008 to look forward to. But, if you've decided to move on, all the best. Thanks for your effort! --Jbet777 10:01, 7 June 2007 (PDT)

Untill such time as you can get over your God Complex and not resort to locking articles that you know contain false information stay far away from any pedia for the sake of reality. Roger 15:45, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

Poor Roger. You should not confuse intellectual superiority with godhood. You should take note of the accumulation of wingnut schlock here since my departure. Bart

You don't even know what a God complex is do you? Roger 12:20, 2 July 2007 (PDT)

Little man you are not the first to confuse being intelligent and articulate with being narcissistic. And I repeat, did ya notice the accumulation of wingnut schlock here since my departure? Bart

I notice a drop in the amount of article locking. Roger 22:33, 5 July 2007 (PDT)

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